Trials on the Swiss HS 30 and the Mowag Pirat

 

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I am sure a couple of you guys know or have heared about the HS 30 with the 90mm gun and the MOWAG Pirat Tank destroyer.

There are very few pictures about these tanks. Infact you might have seen them already.

 

HS 30

MOWAG Jagdpanzer Pirat (early)

Jagdpanzer Pirat (late)

Didn’t help that these Tanks don’t come with much information, so during my many archive visits i went looking for these Tanks as well. And what I’ve found was more than just Interesting.

 

There was a Document within the Archives that did cover the Trials of the MOWAG Pirat and the HS 30 compared to the Panzer 51 ( AMX 13 75) that also came with a lot of Pictures and Specifications.

 

Now before i’ll show the Pictures i have to say something: While in my earlier Articles most people didn’t mind, some people got angry about me putting watermarks on the Pictures with the reason being that I didn’t take the Original Pictures back in the 50s or 60s. And that they were to big. I did change the big watermarks, but i can’t do without  since it’s either me who went to the archives in Person or WG/ some other guys on the internet who then claim that it’s theirs.

 

Well that being said here are the Pictures followed by the Specifications

Tank number 1 Mowag Pirat, 3 + 4  HS 30

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Comparison of gun depression between MOWAG Pirat ( front) HS 30 (middle) and Panzer 51 (rear) rcs2aq7

 

 

Mowag Pirat and HS 30 with Max Elevation and Depression ztpiicc

 

 

Comparison of the HS 30 with the Panzer 51 yvuyf4h

 

 

Panzer 51 and HS 30 from the Front emnrp25

 

 

Rear view

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Another HS 30 picture from the Rear jonpqwo

 

 

HS 30 at maximal depression ssoaxui

 

 

HS 30 at maximal elevation s5whqnx

 

 

Mowag Pirat turret facing left wj0nnfk

 

 

Turning the Turret cc1egeb

 

 

Turret facing right fx9gtxz

 

 

Mowag Pirat compared to Panzer 51 sideview qpghvei

 

 

Front juphgxs

 

 

Rear f2kgqcv

 

Specifications:

 

HS 30:

Length 5600 mm  (5510 mm without gun)

Width: 2510 mm

Heighth: 2440 mm

Weight: 13.5 tons

 

Ground Pressure Offroad: 0.62 kg/cm²

Ground Pressure Onroad: 14 kg/cm²

Links per Track: 90

Track Width: 350 mm

 

Engine: 8 cylinder Rolls Royce – Petrol engine

Bhp: 240 hp

HP/ton ratio: 17.8

Top Speed: 60 km/h

 

Armor f/s/r: 30/15/10

Turret f/s/r: 30/15/10

 

Gun: 9cm Pak. 57

Elevation 23°

Depression 15°

 

Secondary Arnarment: 12.7 mm MG for Rangefinding mounted on Gun

 

MOWAG Pirat:

 

Length: 5360 mm

Width: 2410 mm

Heigth: 2430 mm

Weigth: 12 tons

 

Ground Pressure offroad:0.56 kg/cm²

Ground Pressure onroad: 8-10 kg/cm²

Links per track: 87

Track Width: 350mm

 

Engine: 8 cylinder Chrysler or Ford –  Petrol engine

Bhp: 240 hp

HP/ton ratio: 20

Top speed: 60 km/h

 

Armor f/s/r: 20/15/15

Turret f/s/r: 20/15/10

 

Gun: 9cm Pak. 57

Elevation 23°

Depression 15°

 

Secondary Arnarment: 12.7 mm MG for Rangefinding mounted on Gun

 

As you can see, both are very good tanks just by looking at them, why they didn’t get produced in great numbers i don’t know. but In World of Tanks we’d likely see the HS 30 as a Tier 7 light scout tank and the Mowag Pirat as a tier 8 light scout tank.

 

If you guys have any questions about these tanks, let me know in the Comments. and i’ll try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

What has happened since the last time

It has been 2 months since i last posted on this blog, Mainly due to time reasons, but a lot has happened on my project.

For those people that don’t follow Ritas Status Report ( https://ritastatusreport.live/ ) i have actually managed to find a few Tanks

One of which is a Modification of  a Panzer 39 chassis Intended to be used as a Self propelled AA / TD gun on a rotating turret  with a 34mm Flab cannon.

34mm Panzerjäger 1941

The 34 Pz. K. 41 would also have been able to mount a short 75mm Howitzer or the 4.7cm Inf Kanone, basically an AT gun.

There also was one with a smaller turret and the 34mm cannon on the same chassis which would have been basically an improved Panzer 39  with increased firepower and same turret armor as the regular version. Not much is known about it but i suspect it’s with the same Turret as the Panzer 39 and as already mentioned, the lengthened chassis.

 

Additionally i found two light Tanks, one being a  14 ton Tank and the other being a 16 Ton Tank.  Both were to be Equiped with a 220hp enine which would have given them an OK power to weight ratio, kinda low for 1950 light tanks but not as bad as some other Tanks.

They were to be equiped with rather short 90mm guns which would give them lowish penetration. Also for some reason the lighter 14t tank would have had better armor 60mm frontal hull sloped) than the heavier 16t Tank.

14t Panzer 214t Panzer 116t Panzer16t Panzer 2

 

Then there also was a 30 ton Tank from 1950 which was a very early version of the Panzer 58, it would however work very well as a tier 10 vehicle due to it’s 65mm of Armor slower at 65° which in itself is sloped back again which is more or less an autobounce zone.

It also was to be equiped with 9 variants of a 90mm gun, one being L/62, the other being L/70, the 10.5cm Gun would have been L/53 or L/60, which would have been a very big gun for it’s size of only 6 meters in length.

It would have been 30 tons heavy and had a 600hp engine, which would have made it quite fast with 50 kph top speed.

30t Panzer.jpg

I’ll be going to the Archives and i’ll be looking at some interestign stuff, some of these Projects are called: Worrilow tanks, Lansen Tanks, Panzer 74, 58mm L. Mot. Pak. and much more.

Initial Tree ( updated)

Last changes:

Removed Panther Ausf. G for now.

Added tier 7 to 10 Heavy Tanks

 

Light Tanks

Tier 1: MFT-17 Moskito

Tier 2: Panzer 34/35

Tier 3: Saurer Tartaruga

Tier 4: Panzer 39 (with 4.7cm gun)

Tier 5: LPz 51 avec 34mm HS/W+F bitube

Tier 6: LPz 51

Tier 7: Hispano-Suiza Selbstfahrlafette ( TTL) mit 9cm Kanone

Mediums:

Tier 7: KW 30

Tier 8: Panzer 58

Tier 9: Panzer 61

Tier 10: Panzer 68/75 (GT)

Heavy Tanks:

Tier 7: NKPz concept 1

Tier 8: Panzer 68 KAWEST

Tier 9:  NKPz concept 2

Tier 10: NkPz concept 3

Tank Destroyers:

Tier 4: Nahkampfkanone I Ausf F1

Tier 5: Jagdpanzer G-13

Tier 6: Nahkampfkanone II Ausf. A

Tier 7: Jagdpanzer Pirat

Tier 8: Nahkampfkanone II Ausf. B

Tier 9: MOWAG Gepard

Tier 10: MOWAG Taifun 2 (with 120mm L11)

Self Propelled Guns:

Tier 4: Nahkampfkanone I Ausf. F2

Tier 5: 10.5cm Kanone auf G-13

Tier 6: Panzerhaubize AMX-13

Tier 7: 15cm Haubize auf LPz. 51

Tier 8: Panzerhaubize 66 KAWEST ( swiss modified M109 SPG)

Tier 9: Panzerkanone 68 erster Prototyp ( Panzer 61 chassis with 15cm Kanone 42)

Tier 10: Panzerkanone 68 (Panzer 68 chassis with 15.5cm Kanone 68)

Premium/ Reward Tanks:

Tier 2 Premium: Panzer R35 ( gifted by france (unsure) definately tested by swiss ground forces)

Tier 6 Premium: Jagdpanzer Skorpion

Tier 8 Premium: Panzer 55 ( Centurion Mk. III with the 20 pdr and with the intermediate Engine, so a Centurion I with worse mobility than a fully upgraded Centurion I)

Tier 9 Reward: Panzer M47 Patton (evaluations done by the swiss army, it was competing with the Centurion Mk III)

Tier 10 Reward: Panzer 68 AA2 ( Panzer 68 chassis with the Regular (small) turret unlike the 68/75 which has the large turret)

Tier 5: Panzer 51 mit 34 mm HS/W+F Doppellauf

This is quite an Interesting design. There is not a lot Known about it but from what i see it’s just a Leichter Panzer 51 with a pair of 34 mm Guns. In Wot quite a devestating combination since tanks like the MT-25 also have a 34mm autocannon capable of onecliping a RHM Borsig WT it does have amx 50 100 levles of reload however.

This thing could have decent penetration and quite devestating burst damage.

When it has been designes is unclear and it probably was intended to be an AA tank.

To be fair it’s only one picture from a Swiss military magazine from 2012 and is in french. and google translate is pretty horrible and i can’t speak french ( french and italian parts of switzerland see the other languages as inferior, thus why the german swiss hate french).

andway i let it through google translate and got this:

ce prototype aurait pu se substituer a l’ assemblage antiaerien francais disponible

this prototype could be substituted for the anti-aircraft assembly french available

I have no clue what it should mean, maybe  to replace french aa guns, i don’t really know.

anyway it would make an interesting tier 5 light tank and the gun could work like the one on the MTLS.

Tier 5 light tank

Crew: 3: 1 commander, 1 gunner, 1 Driver

Hit Points: 450

Weight: 11.6 Tons

Engine: ACCA 8 Bxb

Engine Power: 250 bhp

Power to weight: 21.5 hp/ton

Top speed: 60 km/h

Traverse speed: 45°

Hull armor: 40/20/15

Gun: 34 mm Hispano-Suize / W+F Bern Zwillingsflak

Damage: 40/40/50

Penetration: 70/100/20

Shells in the Magazine: 10 shells x2 = 20 shells with 0.3s between each shot

Clip reload: 40 seconds

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Tier 4: Panzerwagen 39

To MilkyM4n *nudge nudge* mod that one i really like the summer camo with that dirty huge CH on the Side and the Lower Plate 🙂

 

The Panzer 39 is based on the Czechoslovakian LTL-H Tank. In World of Tanks it’s known as the LT vz. 38 or the Panzerkampfwagen 38 (t). Switzerland names their tanks depending on what year they entered service, so Tanks that didn’t manage ot enter service just waere named after by their manufacturer.

While the Standart version has a tiny 24mm gun which is never enough for a tier 4 tank, the interesting thing about it is the Upgrade which never happened. It was palnned to change the Turret, close some gunports and make new ones in order to make space for a new and improved 4.7cm gun and give additional room for the crew, which could give this tank a good dpm or at least RoF with the top turret.

Estimated Stats: ( compared to tier 4 lights and mediums)

Crew: 3 ( 1 commander, 1 gunner and 1 driver)

Hit Points: 340 Stock,  360 Top

Weight: 7.7 Tons

Engine: Skoda Prage EPA

Engine Power:  119 bhp

Top Speed: 45 kph

HP/ton ratio: 15.54hp/ton

Traverse Speed: 40°

Hull Armor: 25/15/15

Turret Armor:32/15/15 both Stock and Top

 

Stock Gun: 24mm Panzerwagen Kanone 1938 (W+F Bern) (Autocannon)

Damage: 20/20

Penetration: 50/75

Clipsize: 10 Rounds to 0.2s between shots

Clip Reload: 6 seconds

 

 

Top Gun:  4.7cm Kanone

Damage: 70/70/90

Penetration: 90/120/23

RoF: 25 rpm

 

Tier 3: Saurer Tartaruga

This tank is quite unusual to other tier 3 tanks in the game, while the other tier 3 tank are used in the realy stages of WW II this one however is a cold war era AFV project it was built ind 1959 and was competing against the M113 and the MOWAG Pirat, however the M113 won the contest and the only Prototype stands in the Panzermuseum Thun.

An alternative to this tank would be the Landsverk L-60 which was a swidish tank bought by the swiss army for evaluation.

Anyway, here would be the estimated stats for the Tartaruga:

Tier 3 Light tank

Crew of 3 ( 1 Commander, 1 Gunner and 1 Driver

Hit Points: 240

Weight: 18.2 Tons

 

Engine: Saurer CH 5 D

Engine Power: 250 HP

Top Speed:  approximately 60 kph

Traverse: 45° ( estimating that stat is hard and probably boild down to balance)

Hull Armor: 25/12/?

Turret Armor:25/12/?

 

Gun: 20mm Maschinenkanone Oerlikon Typ 202 GK

Stats: (compared to Pz, I Cs 2cm Flak 38 gun)

Shells in the Magazine: 10

Time between shots: 0.13

Reload time: 3.5s

average pen: 39/51

average damage: 11/11

Dispersion: 0.4m

Aiming time: 1.3s

Radius: 400m

Panzerwagen 34/35

The swiss army bought 6 Vickers-Armstrong Light Tanks Modell 1933/34 for testing purposes. It had a crew of 2, one driver and one commander/gunner.

For World of Tanks this would be a tier 2 light tank.

It only did weigh 3.7 tons and had a 56bhp engine and had a HP/ton ratio of 15.13 and had a top speed of 63km/h.

The armor is quite horrible at 6-15mm on the hull and 12 to 20mm on the turret.

The other bad thing would be the arnarment, in real life it would have a 7.5mm Machinegun as the main weapon. for the sake of balancing, wg could give it a 12mm stock gun and a 20mm top gun which would give it quie low pen and damage, which would be balanced by RoF.

So the overall package would be a fast light tank with terrible armor and a small main gun.

These Vehicles left service in 1948

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MFT-17 Moskito

This would be the Tier 1 swiss light tank.

It is, as the name does suggest a Renault FT which unsurprisingly was used by a lot of countries even so Switzerland.

The Swiss army only bought a Handfull of them and didn’t really modify it. So There is not much to say about it. It would have more or less the same stats as the french tier 1

Hit Points: 120

Weight: 5 tons

Engine:  39HP

Top Speed: 31 km/h

Traverse speed arround 60°

Hull armor: 16/16/16  Turret: 22/22/16

It would be equiped with the standart 37mm Renault gun

As you can see it will not be much different than all the other FT-17 variants in the game, besides it’s only tier 1 so noone really cares that much about it.

As i said the only tanks in this branch that aren’t swiss made/ modified were the Renault FT, the Panzer 34/35 and the Panzerhaubize 66

SONY DSC

Inital Tree (list subject to change)

Light Tanks

Tier 1: MFT-17 Moskito

Tier 2: Panzer 34/35

Tier 3: Saurer Tartaruga

Tier 4: Panzer 39 (with 4.7cm gun)

Tier 5: LPz 51 avec 34mm HS/W+F bitube

Tier 6: LPz 51

Tier 7: Hispano-Suiza Selbstfahrlafette ( TTL) mit 9cm Kanone

 

Mediums:

Tier 7: KW 30

Tier 8: Panzer 58

Tier 9: Panzer 61

Tier 10: Panzer 68/75 (GT)

 

Heavy Tanks:

Tier 7: NKPz concept 1

Tier 8: Panzer 68 KAWEST

Tier 9:  NKPz concept 2

Tier 10: NkPz concept 3

 

Tank Destroyers:

Tier 4: Nahkampfkanone I Ausf F1

Tier 5: Jagdpanzer G-13

Tier 6: Nahkampfkanone II Ausf. A

Tier 7: Jagdpanzer Pirat

Tier 8: Nahkampfkanone II Ausf. B

Tier 9: MOWAG Gepard

Tier 10: MOWAG Taifun 2 (with 120mm L11)

 

Self Propelled Guns:

Tier 4: Nahkampfkanone I Ausf. F2

Tier 5: 10.5cm Kanone auf G-13

Tier 6: Panzerhaubize AMX-13

Tier 7: 15cm Haubize auf LPz. 51

Tier 8: Panzerhaubize 66 KAWEST ( swiss modified M109 SPG)

Tier 9: Panzerkanone 68 erster Prototyp ( Panzer 61 chassis with 15cm Kanone 42)

Tier 10: Panzerkanone 68 (Panzer 68 chassis with 15.5cm Kanone 68)

 

Premium/ Reward Tanks:

Tier 2 Premium: Panzer R35 ( gifted by france (unsure) definately tested by swiss ground forces)

Tier 6 Premium: Jagdpanzer Skorpion

Tier 8 Premium: Panzer 55 ( Centurion Mk. III with the 20 pdr and with the intermediate Engine, so a Centurion I with worse mobility than a fully upgraded Centurion I)

Tier 9 Reward: Panzer M47 Patton (evaluations done by the swiss army, it was competing with the Centurion Mk III)

Tier 10 Reward: Panzer 68 AA2 ( Panzer 68 chassis with the Regular (small) turret unlike the 68/75 which has the large turret)

 

 

More info on the Specific Tanks and updates to this post will happen in the future, so stay tuned. I’ll try to pin this to the main site.

Welcome

Hi there,

I’m a proud member of the Swiss community in World of Tanks ( I do also Play Armored Warfare). And my goal is it to try to get swiss tanks into World of Tanks, or at the very least, raise the attention of these vehicles existing or what vehicles have ben sitting in the archives of Switzerland.

In this blog i will list up Tanks from tier 1 to 10 and try to guess what guns would fit these tanks or their tier. Just to give an idea in how such a tree could look like.

Here a little overview of what to expect:

Despite Switzerland being a rather peaceful country we did have a few tanks, most of them were post world war but quite a few were also WWII era tanks.

We would have only a few purely non swiss built tanks, which were bought for use in the army or used for testing. The later one includes quite a few German warmachines like the Panther or Panzer IV, Pattons an M4 sherman and some Soviet tanks. More on these in the Future.

Other vehicles the were semi swiss like the HS.30 mit 9cm Kanone ( German light tank based on a swiss prototype tank, the Hispano Suiza TTL which again, will be mentioned at some point in the Future) and the Panzer 39, which used a 20mm cannon and was planned to mount a 4.7cm gun, i even found a drawing of a swiss made 7.5cm gun including(!) it’s own turret planned to be mounted on tanks (i thought oabout mopunting it on a Panzer 39, more on that in the future)

There were also purely swiss made vehicles and variations like the infamous Panzer 68, the Panzerkanone 68, Jagdpanzer Mowag Pirat, Nahkampfkanone with a large variety of guns, 7.5cm L/48 guns up to massive 15cm Howitzer ( my plans is to add a proper L/52 15cm Anti Tank gun on it.

Many of these Tanks will be written abut on this blog, so if you’re interested in switzerlands Tankhistory or if you just want to see what different playstyle they could provide then stay tuned.